tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4172451149432147710.post2764292339738579458..comments2023-05-10T10:41:32.689-04:00Comments on Against the Greater Light: Email Discussions with my DadAlexhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14724409661360473452noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4172451149432147710.post-64072400295931947802013-06-21T01:50:20.724-04:002013-06-21T01:50:20.724-04:00"Unbaffling." I like that."Unbaffling." I like that.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14724409661360473452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4172451149432147710.post-14375682294313028782013-06-21T01:35:19.443-04:002013-06-21T01:35:19.443-04:00That's your challenge, to somehow "unbaff...That's your challenge, to somehow "unbaffle" him. That will not be easy. I wish you well. I know this is important to you and to him. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4172451149432147710.post-41476922650800053672013-06-20T22:20:55.259-04:002013-06-20T22:20:55.259-04:00Well, thanks, but sadly that kind of honesty and c...Well, thanks, but sadly that kind of honesty and courage might not be so honorable in his eyes! <br /><br />Okay, that's kind of unfair. My dad's a good enough guy that he probably does respect the courage to a certain degree...he's just completely baffled as to why it was necessary in the first place.<br /><br />Weirdly enough, after three weeks of silence, my dad just emailed me tonight to continue the conversation--like 36 hours after this post. It'd be crazy if he happened to be lurking here! But that's pretty unlikely.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14724409661360473452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4172451149432147710.post-51451043303557954882013-06-20T11:29:47.810-04:002013-06-20T11:29:47.810-04:00When you don’t respond with concrete examples, you...When you don’t respond with concrete examples, you come across as bitter and angry, which, of course, you are. However, you have good reason to feel that way. Your dad says he wants to understand why you are angry. Tell him. The ends don’t justify the means here. Just because you ended up as an “honorable man” doesn’t validate doing it by means of a false church. Your life was mapped out from before you were conceived. You would be born in the covenant, blessed, baptized, confirmed, ordained, endowed, sent on a mission, sealed in the temple, etc. They didn’t want to give you a choice in the matter, thus the indoctrination and brainwashing. One of the things that makes you, in my eyes, “an honorable man who is kind, who respects others, helps others, forgives others, is self-reliant, and makes his own choices” is your honesty and courage to leave the church you know to be false despite the repercussions you knew would come from family, friends, and even people who don’t even know you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4172451149432147710.post-49923672094019920962013-06-20T11:09:36.358-04:002013-06-20T11:09:36.358-04:00Cool. I'm glad you liked my comments. Reading ...Cool. I'm glad you liked my comments. Reading your posts, and occasionally commenting on them, has been very therapeutic for me and my wife.<br /><br />I understand the problem you face if you finally choose to get into a doctrinal discussion with your dad. Mormons think it’s a sin to question the church and to investigate anything counter to what the brethren are teaching. If he’s like pretty much any other staunch Mormon I know, it’s hard to believe he will honestly research any question you place in front of him, but rather, he will toe the line, bear testimony, and then turn it back on you (you're angry, you desire to sin, you have unresolved sins, you must be into pornography, etc). He may go to apologist sites like The Maxwell Institute or FAIR where their lack of honesty and logic is astonishing. You know best where you should start. We all have our “straw that broke the camel’s back.” <br /><br />My wife’s issue is polygamy/polyandry and all the sexual abuse and denigration of women issues that go with it.<br /><br />For me, I think that the most concrete evidence against the church is The Book of Abraham. Why? This is the area where the lying and deceit from Joseph Smith on is very evident. We have the original papyrus, and we have the false translation. What more evidence can you get than that? No amount of spin can change that fact.<br /> <br />I’ll close with two of my favorite quotes about the Book of Abraham.<br /><br />"I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc. -- "Joseph Smith (History of the Church, Vol 2:236)<br /><br />If Joseph Smith's translation of the Egyptian parchment could be discredited, and proven false, then doubt would be thrown also upon the genuineness of his translation of the Book of Mormon; and thus all his pretensions as a translator would be exposed and come to naught. -- B.H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 2:138<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4172451149432147710.post-86513978995772239892013-06-20T01:11:14.296-04:002013-06-20T01:11:14.296-04:00Thank you. That was a pretty awesome comment. I ...Thank you. That was a pretty awesome comment. I like the comparison to Santa--and the Simon and Garfunkel quote was an unexpected touch!<br /><br />I would say that angry is probably the right word for me. I'm all the words you used to describe your own feelings, but I'm definitely angry too. <br /><br />I left out doctrinal discussions because I thought that would make for a more combative exchange. I would love to destroy my dad's (unfounded) faith, but I don't want him to go through the, uh, grieving process that will probably accompany it.<br /><br />I guess we'll see what happens.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14724409661360473452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4172451149432147710.post-44468747939306575632013-06-19T23:13:09.832-04:002013-06-19T23:13:09.832-04:00I appreciate you sharing this with us. You are abs...I appreciate you sharing this with us. You are absolutely right. You have been avoiding a doctrinal debate with him. Your reasons for being angry sound unfounded, because they lack specific examples.<br /><br />I admire your desire to be respectful to your parents. That’s a sign of good character. I remember hearing Rush Limbaugh say, many years ago before I stopped listening to him, that he doesn’t talk religion, because he doesn’t want to destroy someone’s faith. Are you leaving out the doctrinal problems for that reason? <br /><br />Your dad has been able to craftily turn the discussion away from the reasons why you know the church is NOT true to YOUR anger.<br /><br />I believe I understand and share some of your feelings, but I don’t know if “anger” is really the right word for it, though I’ve used that word to describe my feelings about the church and toward people in the church. It’s hard to describe “anger” toward the church, but here are a few words that describe my feelings: perplexed, dumbfounded, duped, miffed, peeved, vexed, displeased, frustrated, uncomfortable, tricked, deceived, ticked off, ripped off, annoyed...<br /><br />It’s kind of how a child feels when they find out Santa isn’t real. However, in this case, you’re an adult, and everybody around you keeps telling you that he exists, and no matter what proof you give, they still stick to their story like a used car salesman. <br /><br />To quote Simon and Garfunkel’s song The Boxer: “All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” That’s what we’re taught to do in the church.<br /><br />Like you, I am angry about being lied to. You haven’t wanted to get specific with your dad, but just in case you want to read more about the institutional lying in the church, here’s a link to a great article about it with over 150 well-documented examples: http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm.<br /><br />Finally, I’m struggling with the fact that I don’t want to teach my kids that it’s true when I know it isn’t, and any honest, thinking person would come to the same conclusion. I don’t want them to come back to me later and ask me why I continued to push this on them when they could have had the freedom to live their lives unencumbered by false teachings and unreasonable restrictions. I think the reason you use some of the terms you do (brainwashing and indoctrination) is because your dad is an intelligent man and a good father, and perhaps the only explanation you can find for him staying in the church is indoctrination and brainwashing.<br /><br />I wish you well in your conversations with him. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com